Gun control. Is it time to admit that right to carry is a failure?

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Betty Boo Profile
Betty Boo answered

No.

If a person wants a gun.... They will find a way to get one.

If a person had .. Had a gun in South Carolina... Maybe not so many would have died.

No guns mean that the BAD guy gets to kill more people.

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CalTex - Doug Morgan
@Betty: As this cop says in this video* regarding gun ownership for self defense, just having a gun is not going to increase your survivability. It requires very specific training and a particular mindset. Some yahoo in that church would have been as likely to kill someone else accidentally as he would have been to kill the assailant. And it is just so naive to believe that putting more guns into volatile situations will not push those volatile situations from a intense disagreement into homicide. Guns are more likely to escalate a situation than to resolve them.

(*http://concealedcarryconfidence.org/concealed-carry-for-beginners-d/?ac&gclid=CObd8-ap18ECFQlffgodAgMAGA)
Shinypate one
Shinypate one commented
Caltex, Mexico has four tkmes the rate of gun violence than America in spite of having very restrictive laws. They have major problems compared to us. This lie that we are unique is laughable, there are at least 20 countries with higher gun violence than USA.
CalTex - Doug Morgan
@Shiny: My comparisons are to nations with similar cultures, i.e. advanced nations. I do not include Mexico because Mexico is racked with withering poverty within its population. What are these similar countries with more restrictive gun laws and more gun violence?
Soul Fly Profile
Soul Fly answered

This would be like say that the automobile is a failure do to how many accidents are caused by drunk drivers. Guns and the right to carry arms is important. The reason we have this amendment is also important. The amendment was created so that governments would not have the power to overthrow its people, and allow its citizens to hold arms over its government if needed.

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Shinypate one
Shinypate one commented
Cal, the people who have shot up colleges and churches and schools have one demographic in common: they are crazy. If you have a sugg3stion for how to keep guns out of the hands of the crazies, while leaving the law abiding normals in possession, THAT would be a welcome suggestion
CalTex - Doug Morgan
Background checks, wait periods for gun transactions, and apply all existing gun sales restrictions to gun show sales for starters.
CalTex - Doug Morgan
It is obvious only to those who believe society is collapsing. Anyone who believes society is collapsing, and thinks more guns are the answer, may be engaging in a self-fulling prophesy.
PJ Stein Profile
PJ Stein answered

Far from it. Most gun owners never point their gun at another person. The guy in SC was a bigot and a racist. Back in the 60s there were people burning churches, which resulted in people dying. Do you think they should have outlawed matches? 

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CalTex - Doug Morgan
@Shiny: Never has there been a case where murder rates increased as guns became less available. I delineated all the reasons (perhaps not "all") that guns are the go-to weapon of choice for committing murder and mayhem in my first comment in this thread The goal is not to eliminate gun-related deaths. It is to significantly diminish them. In response to Arthur Wright's answer I provided three studies which found that gun controls do just that.

As to whether gun controls would have prevented the AME church shootings, I have this to offer. What we need in this country is a sea-change in how we view guns. We have a gun culture in this country which promotes guns as a solution to problems. It is borne of our history. But it is history. What got us here is not going to get us there. I remember a time when it was considered comical to drink and drive, when spousal abuse was justifiable, when laws preventing blacks from equal access were considered the norm, and when homosexuals were treated as rapists and pedophiles. Legislation helped steer this great ship in a new, more acceptable, direction. Those past abuses are no longer tolerated, or are far less tolerated. We need meaningful gun legislation to help turn the tide on our gun culture. I won't do the job entirely, but it will, as those other laws have done, get our collective psyche thinking differently about how we relate to guns.
CalTex - Doug Morgan
@Gator: I agree with your concern regarding education, but perhaps not in the particulars. I support mandated weapons training for anyone wanting to purchase a gun. That is one aspect of education I would like to see implemented. But until a strong message is sent through gun control legislation (as was the case with civil rights legislation), our collective psyche will continue to worship at the alter of the NRA.
PJ Stein
PJ Stein commented
I don't think most gun owners belong to the NRA. Most people I know owns at least one gun. I know very few who belong to the NRA. The thing with the NRA is they have the money and many presume they speak for all gun owners. They don't. I am all for a three day waiting period. If I knew of a way to create a data base for people with mental issues without compromising there rights and opening it up to misuse, so they couldn't buy a gun, I would be open to that as well. I know I don't have the answers, but I don't what a knee jerk reaction dictating law either.
Cookie Roma Profile
Cookie Roma answered

Actually, I think it's time to admit that gun control has failed.

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CalTex - Doug Morgan
So you would rather live in a society without restrictions on firearms? Where every crazy (and most importantly, crazies yet to the identified as such) are walking around armed to the teeth with no adequate training as to how to safely use the weapon or how to defuse a volatile situation without escalating it by pulling out a gun? Not me.
CalTex - Doug Morgan
@Jewels; You and I see the issue of gun control and police over-reach differently. I seem them as two separate issues.
Arthur Wright Profile
Arthur Wright , Florida Paralegal with a BS degree in Social-Psychology, answered

It has been shown that where more carry concealed that crime has gone down, so its far from failing.  There will always be idiots and hate and evil in the world looking to make a name for themselves but truth is if it weren't for guns, these people would only find something else. The problem is keeping the guns out of the bad people which is no easy task. Now POTUS Obama wants to get rid of guns to make taking over America that much easier -  so forget gun control here. 

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CalTex - Doug Morgan
@Arther: Please cite your source that supports the claim that more guns leads to less gun violence. Not saying it doesn't exist, but I would like to evaluate how it arrived at that conclusion.

In the meantime, I will provide these three studies:

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/03/striking-relationship-between-gun-safety-laws-and-firearm-deaths/4902/

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/04/03/1811311/study-states-with-loose-gun-laws-have-higher-rates-of-gun-violence/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/07/gun-violence-study-chicago/1969227/

Here are a couple of findings from that last study: "States with the most laws had a mortality rate 42% lower than those states with the fewest laws, they found. The strong law states' firearm-related homicide rate was also 40% lower and their firearm-related suicide rate was 37% lower." And... "The study also found that laws requiring universal background checks and permits to purchase firearms were most clearly associated with decreasing rates of gun-related homicides and suicides."
CalTex - Doug Morgan
Also, where and when did Obama say he wants to "get rid of guns"? All I've heard is that he wants to treat guns like cars. We don't outlaw cars. We regulate their use.
Ray Dart Profile
Ray Dart answered

To quote from a headline in yesterdays Times. "I've never seen anyone shot by a person not carrying a gun."

Those countries that have rigid gun controls, (like most of Europe) have, generally-speaking, a tiny fraction of the firearm-related crime that exists in the US.

I'm not going to draw conclusions from those two statements, but others might.

You also might want to look at the following:

http://www.juancole.com/2013/01/firearm-murders-equiv.html

The above is out of date, but the number of firearm-related murders in the UK in 2014 was 9. (Granted, it was a good year, and there were plenty of non-firearm-related murders).

If you allow guns into wider society, that means that the proportion that will misuse them is a larger number than if you don't.

hunter dude Profile
hunter dude answered

It's very simple, if you take away the right to carry, you are not taking guns away from criminals, you are only taking them away from law abiding citizens, AKA the good guys. Criminals do not follow laws, that's what makes them criminals, AKA the bad guys. Some people believe that making guns illegal will keep them off the streets, we should make heroin and meth illegal too!

“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own.  Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”  - Jeff Cooper


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CalTex - Doug Morgan
None of those restrictions deny firearms to those who hunt or want a weapon for self defense. The exception perhaps is the lack of a readily available self-defense weapon where minors might have access, and the gun is required to be locked. There are just too many children killed or killing because of access to unlocked guns owned by otherwise responsible gun owners. 
 But if I had a gun and felt my family was in a such a constant state of danger that I considered a readily available, loaded gun to be warranted, then I would do what I felt I needed to do, and throw myself on the mercy of the courts if I was able to use it (or if a minor family member did harm to himself or others) because I was not in compliance with #4 above.

Unlike some people, I do not accept that "assault weapons" should be banned, because the definition of assault weapon is too nebulous, and the restrictions stated above take care of the most important "assault weapons-related" issues.
hunter dude
hunter dude commented
Some of those restrictions I agree with, but most just affect law abiding citizens. 10 rounds or less? criminals will find a way to get around that. if my gun was able to hold 30 rounds but it was locked up properly, I don't think there would be any issues. the 10 rounds or less law only affects law abiding citizens, since they're the ones who follow laws, leaving them with less bullets, and the criminals with more bullets.
CalTex - Doug Morgan
@Hunter: Laws against driving while intoxicated also affect law abiding citizens who could drive responsibly even with their blood alcohol above the legal limit. Therefore many otherwise capable drivers must refrain from enjoying drinks as they normally would in order to be compliant as they drive home. And conversely, there are people who should not be driving even when under the legal limit. 
There are many laws which affect otherwise law abiding citizens like drinking age, fireworks, campfires, drug use, etc. For instance, as a law abiding citizen I might like to have a ballistic missile with a nuclear warhead and a launcher in my backyard. I would never think of using it. I just like the idea of having it. But because there are bad guys who would love to have that too, I have to forgo what I want in deference to the bad guys.

So what should the limit for ammunition clips be? 10? 15? 100? My point is that a semi-automatic weapon with a 10-round magazine -- and is NOT locked up properly -- will do less damage in the wrong hands than one which holds more than 10 rounds. 
 And we here often about the tragic consequences of guns that were not locked up properly.

Like automobile regulations, the idea behind gun regulations is not to prevent death and injury. It is an attempt to reduce it.

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